Episode 2: Leaning into Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging (transcript)
Dantley Davis: So early in my career, I started to realize that, although I thought I had found my flock, I was still seen as different.
Sonia Kang: As a kid, Dantley Davis grew up obsessed with electronics, computer programming and video games. Years later, when he started working in tech as a designer and developer, he sat down next to a bunch of people who spoke the same language.
Dantley Davis: [00:00:30] I was a nerd just like them.
Sonia Kang: Unfortunately, they didn’t see him the same way.
Dantley Davis: After the end of us working 12 hours, they would go to a guard, not invite me, or they were having their own video gaming session on the weekend. And I would hear about it later. And I wasn’t invited.
Sonia Kang: Despite all their similarities, there was one big difference between Dantley and his colleagues.
Dantley Davis: I’m half black, half Korean.
Sonia Kang: The color of his skin. [00:01:00]
Welcome to For the Love of Work, an original podcast about the employee experience made possible by Rogers. My name is Sonia Kang. I’m a professor of organizational behavior, and I study the psychology of people at work. In this episode, we’re exploring a couple of big topics: diversity and inclusion. What they actually mean, how you can tell when a progressive company is practicing them properly. And how [00:01:30] people at any level of an organization can be allies to colleagues from underrepresented groups.
Dantley Davis: Make the hires and make the promotions and stop the talking.
Sonia Kang: We’ll also hear about how Dantley Davis went from that lonely entry-level designer job to Chief Design Officer at Twitter, where he leads incredibly diverse and inclusive teams.
Sonia Kang: [00:02:00] In the middle of a pandemic, the issue of police brutality bubbled to the surface. Again, in Minneapolis, the killing of George Floyd launched a global movement in solidarity with Black Lives Matter. In Canada during the same period, there were several instances of police brutality against Indigenous people. As protests broke out all over the world, they led to a broader conversation about Black lives, Indigenous lives and the experiences of people of color.
Tina Opie: [00:02:30] I think the unique thing about this situation is the trauma was not only experienced by Black people, it was experienced by everyone.
Sonia Kang: As progressive companies raced to support their Black and Indigenous employees all workplaces were forced to examine their role in perpetuating systemic racism. Companies from Adidas to Xerox were quick to put out statements, condemning anti-black racism and violence. And many companies started the difficult, but so [00:03:00] overdue work of having internal conversations around race and racism.
Sonia Kang: It finally feels like we have a bit of momentum, but it’s just a start. There’s so much more work to be done, especially as workplaces become more and more diverse. So on this episode, I want to continue the discussion because diversity and inclusion is my specific area of study. And I’ve invited a few other experts to join us. Let’s begin [00:03:30] by defining some terms.
Tina Opie: Diversity refers to numeric representation. So literally counting the number of people within particular categories.
Sonia Kang: Tina Opie is a Professor of Management at Babson College. She also consults with companies who want to develop D&I strategies.
Tina Opie: So you might count the number of black employees, the number of Latinx employees or Asian employees. The number of people who identify as women or non- [00:04:00] gender binary, the people who identify as men.
Sonia Kang: We’re focusing on race in this episode, but companies also need to pay attention to diversity based on age, gender identity, social class, sexual orientation, ability, and all of the myriad, other social identities that make each of us who we are. They also need to pay attention to how these different identities intersect to create unique experiences and challenges. Like Tina says, diversity [00:04:30] is about the numbers. Are we getting good numbers of different employees through the door.
While we’re talking about definitions, it’s also important to note that diverse
and diversity are words that describe groups, not individuals. I hear this all the time. People will talk about so-and-so being a diversity hire or ask me how I feel about something as a diverse person or as the parent of a diverse kit. This is hugely problematic because it centers white [00:05:00] as the default desired race and everything else is being diverse or different from that standard. A black person is no more diverse than a white person, nor is a group of five black people, more racially diverse than a group of five white people. Instead, if you want to refer to someone’s racial identity, honour it, name it specifically. For example, depending on the context, I might refer to myself as Indian or Indo-Canadian, or I might just say that I’m Canadian.
Tina Opie: Then we get to inclusion [00:05:30] and inclusion has to do with who is at the table to make the decisions.
Sonia Kang: Inclusion is all about what happens to employees once they’ve come through the door and they’re now on the inside. Did they feel welcome? Do they have power? Are their voices heard? Can they be themselves at work? Do they have the same chance of rising through the ranks as everyone else? Companies tend to do a lot of work on the diversity side, making sure that their hiring pools are [00:06:00] diverse, but sometimes seem to forget about the inclusion side altogether. And then you end up with a lot of diversity at the bottom, but basically only white men at the top.
Tina Opie: Some prefer the term belonging with that slightly different, because that’s about..I think its psychological attachment and sense of belonging to the organization.
Sonia Kang: As we’ll talk about more in a later episode on psychological safety, feeling included and likely belong is a fundamental human need. [00:06:30] If we don’t feel included, we won’t even feel safe and secure in the environment, let alone feel inspired and empowered to be our best selves and do our best work. But a lack of inclusion doesn’t only disrupt our ability to do a good job. It cuts much deeper.
Jason Murray: It actually starts to affect people’s mental health.
Sonia Kang: Jason Murray runs BIPOC Executive Search. One area he asks companies to look at is the insidious ways a sense of belonging can get undercut.
Jason Murray: For [00:07:00] a black person you may be traveling to your place of work. And even before you get to your office, you will have experienced maybe a dozen microaggressions on the way. And my experience of microaggression, when they are in a lineup and may feel like the cashier is just kind of giving them that vibe of, “I prefer not to check that person out.” It can even be being in your place of work and seeing all of these very traumatizing [00:07:30] events happening to black bodies and black people and people in your office, not checking in to see how you might be doing.
Sonia Kang: And that is a missed opportunity for allyship because all you really need to do is listen.
Jason Murray: And a lot of people don’t know how, and that’s part of the problem. And when you experience microaggressions like bad and black people experience them often that is a form of discrimination or a form of racism embedded in our systems.
Sonia Kang: [00:08:00] Jason is absolutely right, but a better term for microaggression is something like every day or insidious racism because there’s nothing micro about it. It’s a big problem. One that Dantley Davis is all too familiar with.
Dantley Davis: I personally have gone through that most of my career, where I had my corporate self, which was just a very small slice of me because I had felt the pain of [00:08:30] being stereotyped or judged or discriminated against. And then I had the regular me that I showed it to my friends and my family. And that’s not a great way of living.
Sonia Kang: Dantley is describing something called code switching, which happens when people express themselves one way with one group of people and then another way with another group of people. Code switching isn’t necessarily bad. You wouldn’t speak to your boss in the same way you speak to your kids for example. [00:09:00] But code switching can be bad if people are doing it because they feel forced to do it because their identities aren’t welcome and given space. For a long time, there was only one way to deal with not feeling included for a person of color. It was to speak and act the way they needed to, to make their true self invisible in white spaces. Just keep your head down and do the work.
Dantley Davis: My dad told me from the time I was 10 years old that I had to work two times harder than anyone around me [00:09:30] for the same thing. So I took that to heart. So the way I tried to prove my worth was not by speaking up early in my career, it was by just grinding and making sure that everyone understood I was there for merit.
Sonia Kang: Now that strategy can make you really good at what you do, which is definitely what happened to Dantley. He worked at a string of big companies like PayPal, Facebook, and Netflix, but working [00:10:00] hard doesn’t actually fix racism. And it’s completely unfair and unacceptable to put that burden of figuring out how to work around racism onto the people who are experiencing it. So we’re going to get to some real solutions in just a moment. But first now that we have a few terms down, let’s look at some things standing in the way of diversity and inclusion in the workplace.
Dolly Chugh: One study said that in any given moment, like if I were to snap my fingers, 11 [00:10:30] million pieces of information were going through my mind at that moment, but only 40 of them were conscious. Like what we would actually think of as thoughts versus the rest are kind of these unconscious thoughts.
Sonia Kang: Dolly Chugh is a Professor of Management and Organizations at NYU and author of an awesome book called The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias, and the Dear Good People Newsletter. She’s done a lot of research about something called Implicit or [00:11:00] unconscious Bias. And she says that to understand bias, you have to understand how the mind deals with an overwhelming amount of information.
Dolly Chugh: The way the mind does that, how is it handling 11 million pieces of information or whatever the right number is, it’s doing it through a lot of shortcuts. It’s doing it through a lot of autopilot.
Sonia Kang: Our brains have to develop these shortcuts to help us get through life efficiently, but that can become problematic. For example, stereotypes are one of these shortcuts [00:11:30] and they can come out as racism .
Dolly Chugh: That we may not even remember when we specifically started to associate those ideas. We may not have any sort of love for those ideas. We may not on a conscious level in any way, endorse them.
Sonia Kang: But these unconscious biases can guide our behavior.
Dolly Chugh: The unconscious biases, I think, make it harder for us to notice things, because if we’re sort of expecting to see a certain thing, then even on an unconscious level, we’re not [00:12:00] going to notice sort of stuff outside of that expectation.
Sonia Kang: Mental shortcuts like stereotypes are so efficient. They can block out information that goes against what we’re expecting to see. For example, black and indigenous people are unjustly targeted by stereotypes associating them with lower intelligence and professional ability. In my own work, I found that if you send out two identical resumes, one with a black name and one with a white name, the one with a white name is two and a half times [00:12:30] more likely to get a call back for an interview. It’s awful. The thing is, if you talk to the hiring managers who looked at those resumes, they would probably tell you that the process was fair.
Jason Murray: Each and every day, it seems like there’s someone else who has a platform that will say something like we don’t feel like there’s anything wrong with our institution in terms of inequities or in terms of institutional racism or things of that nature.
Sonia Kang: This is Jason Murray, again.
Jason Murray: What that does is it [00:13:00] tells the employees, “Well, if that’s what the president said, I think I’m okay. I don’t have to do any learnings. I don’t have to become any more engaged. The problem isn’t me. The problem is the people that are saying that there’s a problem.”
Sonia Kang: And this is how we get to systemic racism. When racist structures and processes are so deeply embedded in society and in organizations as normal practice, that they’re acted out over and over again [00:13:30] and again, and become so normalized that people don’t even consider them as racist because they simply don’t see it.
Tina Opie: The reason why we have a disproportionate representation of white men in executive positions is because of racist policies and systems. Because otherwise, what are the alternative explanations? There’s something lacking in women? There’s something lacking in black people and Asian people and Latinx people and Middle Eastern people? [00:14:00] They’re not as competent? They’re not as educated? So basically what we’re saying, in order for it not to be racist is that there are no other qualified people besides white men to fill those roles. And that those white men are the most qualified people for those positions.
Sonia Kang: So this is the anatomy of systemic or institutional racism. It’s there, but for the most part isn’t noticed because of how normal it seems. And in [00:14:30] the meantime, it’s creating major disparities in things like housing, employment, education, and healthcare. It’s a huge obstacle standing in the way of diversity and inclusion. But Tina Opie has hope.
Tina Opie: Racist behavior is temporary. I think the thing that I’m seeing now is more people are willing to admit that they’ve engaged in those behaviors or said those things or had those thoughts and therefore they need help. [00:15:00] The second thing that I’m seeing is a willingness to be transparent and vulnerable.
Sonia Kang: And that takes a lot of work. So next, we’re going to look at some solutions that organizations and people can use when they’re willing, transparent, vulnerable, and ready to make a change.
Aneeta Rattan: [00:15:30] So if an organization wants to try and work on its inclusion practice, the first thing I would say is that they need to understand where the problems are. And ideally understand that using data, which they can track as they implement new practices, to try and resolve that problem.
Sonia Kang: Aneeta Rattan is a professor of organizational behavior at London Business School. The first thing an organization must do is admit and accept the existence of systemic racism.
Aneeta Rattan: [00:16:00] You have got to address the stereotypes and biases that are in the system, and you might have to address the stereotypes and biases that are in your majority group members.
Sonia Kang: But it’s not just about looking at people. It’s also the processes that the company has set up for everyone to use. For example, hiring, promotion and evaluation practices like performance reviews are all heavily influenced by systemic racism.
Aneeta Rattan: You have got to really take a hard look at people who might be in positions of [00:16:30] power and ask where do they need to work on themselves? Where do they need to be educated? Or are they the right people? And then the second step is to really invite the voices of members of underrepresented groups so that you can learn from them about what the barriers to their belonging are. And then you actually bring in experts and say, “Okay, we have listened to our people? These are the things they say, how can you help us come up with programs and practices and policies [00:17:00] to address the issues that we have?”
Sonia Kang: Experts like Tina Opie.
Tina Opie: By the way, you have to learn how to do that. Because many times I think this conversation about racism and anti-racism leads people to become very, either defensive or reactive. They may attack other people who don’t agree with them.
Sonia Kang: Progressive companies hopefully aren’t reacting like that, rather they might be initiating conversations about unconscious bias, but be aware of companies that [00:17:30] try to put a bandaid on D&I issues with a one and done session of unconscious bias training. Instead, those conversations could lead to mentoring programs or support for internal employee resource groups and providing a safe space for employees from underrepresented groups. Companies might be creating D&I councils made up of employees and leaders or setting up listening sessions like the ones Tina runs.
Tina Opie: It might be for example, women partners get together and [00:18:00] they do what we call fishbowl, where they will talk with each other about the experience of being women partners at a particular firm. Men and people who are non-binary might observe and take notes and listen. And then they reflect on that. And they’re not allowed to interrupt, to comment, to sneeze. I’m very clear on those instructions. You are literally a fly on the wall and then to go away and reflect and share specific examples of how you as [00:18:30] an individual, how you and your role and how your organization writ large, can address or redress the issues that those women just shared. And I do the same thing with people from different racio-ethnic backgrounds.
Sonia Kang: Listening carefully, absorbing what you’ve heard and taking that learning into your future interactions is one form of allyship. Honest self-examination is another. Tina gets clients to do that during the super [00:19:00] interesting exercise called Dig and Bridging.
Tina Opie: Dig is about surfacing your own racialized identity, understanding what that means, understanding what your perspectives are on race, your own, as well as others. And then once you do that work, you can bridge, which is connect with people who are different from you, hear from them, and then learn how to develop policy change, to affect collective advance.
Sonia Kang: She starts with the head of the company.
Tina Opie: [00:19:30] I’ll go to them and say, “Listen, share with me your personal narrative about race. Talk to me about when you first felt like you recognize that you were white or that you’re black or Latinx or Asian.”
Sonia Kang: Getting leaders to talk about their own racial identity and how it influences their same race and cross race interactions requires them to go deep.
Tina Opie: That level of racialized introspection, I think [00:20:00] leads to empathy. And when leaders express that empathy and they’re vulnerable enough to share that it leads to other people trusting them more.
Sonia Kang: That dig in bridging then ripples down from the executive to the leadership teams and it creates space for a wider dialogue.
Tina Opie: Another strategy is to increase diversity and remember that means numeric representation. Organizations often focus on, “Okay, let’s develop an intern program. Let’s make sure we get more people into [00:20:30] the pipeline.” Okay. That’s great. But what about hiring cohorts of executives to come in from historically underrepresented groups? Not at the bottom, but at the top of the organization.
Sonia Kang: I love this idea so much and other groups are getting on board with it too. In Canada, Jason Murray is part of a group of black business executives who’ve started the Black North Initiative.
Jason Murray: Having more black, indigenous and persons of color, not just as employees, [00:21:00] but people who are a part of executive teams. So that they’re a part of planning for the future and determining strategy, and really trying to make sure that the organization overall is thinking about inclusion and the most intentional terms.
Sonia Kang: Participating companies commit to seven goals, including increasing representation of black people at the VP plus levels to reflect their overall population in the country by 2025. But there’s a challenge [00:21:30] when you just advocate for representation. Even at the executive level, it creates a loophole for busy executives called the pipeline problem where they say, “I would love to hire a black or indigenous person for the super fancy senior position, but I just can’t find one.”
Dantley Davis: There is not a pipeline problem.
Sonia Kang: After working for years in Silicon Valley, Dantley Davis ended up moving from designer to executive. He’s now the chief [00:22:00] design officer at Twitter.
Dantley Davis: I found that as I transitioned from being a designer to a manager and then executive, recruiting was a core part of the work that I did.
Sonia Kang: Dantley discovered that lack of diversity isn’t a pipeline problem. It’s a recruitment problem.
Dantley Davis: And this goes back to the advice that my dad gave me, which is: work two times harder than everyone around you. I challenge all white executives [00:22:30] to do two times the work of any black or brown person at your company when it comes to hiring. I would lift all the rocks to find people. I would do searches on black women who are writing blogs that also happened to be designers who are outspoken about conditions as it related to diversity within tech. And before COVID, I was traveling all over the world, meeting with people of color. I flew to [00:23:00] London to meet with a black woman about a goal, and that was just for coffee.
Sonia Kang: And something awesome started happening as a result of Dantley’s rock lifting .
Dantley Davis: A number of people throughout the country and in some cases, the world reached out to us wanting to be part of our team because of how outspoken we had been regarding diversity and inclusion.
Sonia Kang: They wanted to work without the insidious racism and the code switching.
Dantley Davis: The folks [00:23:30] on my team can be themselves when they’re in the office or in this case, virtual, they don’t have to have a projection of themselves. They show up as who they are and we embrace them.
Sonia Kang: Okay, I get it. Not everyone is in a position where they’re able to recruit and hire people. So if you’re not a manager or team leader, and you’re feeling that the sense of belonging in your company isn’t what you need it to be, this is what Dolly Chugh says [00:24:00] you can do.
Dolly Chugh: Build the community, that’s my message. Even if you’re the only black person or the only woman or one of a small group, there are other people going through what you’re going through in other organizations. And there are ways now, fairly easy ways to connect with them formally or informally.
Sonia Kang: And remember this kind of networking can become recruiting as recruiting undergoes a disruption these days.
Dantley Davis: If you’re an executive or senior manager, [00:24:30] I guarantee you, the entry-level black engineer on your team is out recruiting you.
Sonia Kang: Progressive companies are asking their employees at every level to participate in recruiting. And this is why diversity is so important. If everyone is involved in recruiting, you want to have people from as many different communities as possible. Someone on the inside will have a better idea of where to look and how to recruit.
Krystal Abotossaway: So my name is Krystal Abotossaway. I [00:25:00] am a proud indigenous woman. I’m from the Eagles clan. And my father is from Aundeck Omni Kaning First Nations. And my mother’s from Chippewas of Mnjikaning First Nations. I work for TD Bank in recruitment as a diversity sourcing specialist.
Sonia Kang: Some companies like TD Bank are building recruitment programs for specific communities. And there’s an interesting reason for that.
Krystal Abotossaway: I’m just a handful of people within my own community that’s actually worked at a [00:25:30] bank or understands what that job is like. It’s lack of awareness of understanding what that job is. For instance, I almost turned down my first banking job because I thought that I had to be really great at finance and I was taking accounting and not doing very well. And that I have to be very good at math. And that’s just the unconscious bias because we just don’t know. When they start to demystify some [00:26:00] of those unconscious biases, the indigenous community in particular go, “I never thought that I would be interested in a banking job, but now having spoken to you and heard your story, I love to give you my resume.”
Sonia Kang: Having someone from your community show you what’s possible has such a strong impact. Companies need to pay attention to this and do a better job of understanding how their recruitment, hiring and other processes might not be a good match for particular cultures, if they’re not informed by members [00:26:30] of those cultures to begin with.
Krystal Abotossaway: As indigenous people, when we first meet or interact with someone that we do not know, we start by sharing our personal story of where we come from. Potentially if you’re [inaudible 00:00:26:42], like what clan are you from? And these are really important facets to our culture and our identity and how we interact with people. When you have that and then you go into a corporate interview for instance, and [00:27:00] they’re not really asking about you. They’re asking about your skills, your experience, what education do you have? You’ve missed that very crucial cultural component of where we would want to work for your organization.
Sonia Kang: Understanding things like social norms, customs and historical context are all key to building diversity and inclusion. Jason Murray told us another story. It’s a small one, but it says a lot.
Jason Murray: I’ve had conversations with candidates, [00:27:30] such as let’s say a black woman view. I’m asking to consider a role in a remote area, as opposed to an area that’s a metropolis, more urbanized, that will literally ask me a question such as, “Jason, where would I go to get my hair done?” And it might seem like a very simple question, but let’s face it. We need to have services around us that actually takes care of the life side of our work-life balance.
Sonia Kang: Building inclusive organizational cultures, cultures [00:28:00] of belonging must take everyone into account. And it benefits from everyone’s participation. And this includes white employees and other allies too. Allyship means doing work to improve mentorship and sponsorship programs, amplifying traditionally underrepresented voices, putting in dedicated time and effort to educate yourself about D&I issues and the people that you work with. Paying real close attention to the people you’re working with and what can be done to make sure they’re included and [00:28:30] empowered and not being forced to act like anything other than themselves at work. And perhaps most importantly, being open to admitting mistakes and moving past them towards something better. But as that culture is building and let’s face it, we’re still very early in this process.
Different companies are at different stages of their D&I journeys. In the meantime, there’s a few more things companies and employees can do to create diversity and inclusion. The first has to do with something [00:29:00] called mindsets.
Aneeta Rattan: So is it possible for someone to enter a work team and still be someone from a demographically different background, but not have to worry about how much they’re going to belong based on their identity?
Sonia Kang: Aneeta Rattan studies the effects of a fixed mindset versus a growth mindset in combating stereotyping and bias. We talked a bit about a growth [00:29:30] mindset in the last episode, as it had to do with resilience. Where if you focus on the ability to learn and develop, you can make it through tough situations.
Aneeta Rattan: Are these people going to accept me here? Am I going to feel like I belong? And in my research, I’ve been really interested in trying to understand how to turn the volume down or even turn off that question in minorities and women’s minds.
Sonia Kang: Yeah. Basically [00:30:00] using our mindset to tone down the effect of bias. If you believe people can learn and change this growth mindset will make you more resilient as you wait for that change. Now, of course, this kind of mindset isn’t going to solve the problem of racism, but it might help you get through another day. And Dolly Chugh says it’s a critical mindset to have if you want to be an ally.
Dolly Chugh: It’s constant work. It’s the work of what I call being a goodish person, instead of a good person. If you see yourself as [00:30:30] a good person, you just think I’m supposed to know how to do this. I’m a good person. I know how to do diversity and inclusion. And as opposed to as a goodish person, I’m a work in progress. I’m always learning new stuff. I’m always noticing new stuff. This is great. I mean, it sucks that I didn’t see it before, but I sure do you see it now? Like it is what allows you to truly then move forward.
Sonia Kang: Accepting you might still be influenced by unconscious biases, admitting when they happen and having faith [00:31:00] in your ability to change over time. A growth mindset is almost definitely something Dantley Davis had working for so many years as one of the only black designers in Silicon Valley, whether he was conscious of it or not, that mindset had been instilled in him.
Dantley Davis: Yeah, my dad is black and he was very outspoken and vocal about civil rights. And when he passed, I felt I could use [00:31:30] what I love, which was technology design to be an activist within the context of the work that I do. And I found this sweet spot where by paying attention to the needs of underrepresented groups, I was actually able to build great products for everyone. But it was his lessons of being outspoken, speaking truth to power that when he did pass, I vowed to myself that [00:32:00] I wouldn’t be silent.
Sonia Kang: At this point, Dantley’s personal or cultural values start meshing with what corporate values should be. Almost any company makes a product or offers a service available to anyone. At its most evolved the product or service bridges gaps among all communities. So why would you not design your employee experience to reflect that same diversity?
Dantley Davis: So that comes through us being very open with how we work. [00:32:30] It comes from us being very vulnerable in terms of what we need for talent and thought perspective in order for us to be better. And it comes from us being willing to put a mirror in front of us to eliminate our flaws. And by doing that, we saw that we didn’t have the right level of representation for the important work that we were doing beyond Silicon Valley. [00:33:00] And where the team is today is more of a representation of those values.
Sonia Kang: If diversity and inclusion aren’t embedded in your company’s values, it’ll be very hard to enact those values in the employee experience and the customer experience. So D&I starts with the leadership of your company. Are they recruiting proactively? Are they running sponsorship programs and listening sessions? Are they supporting employee [00:33:30] resource groups? Are they fostering an inclusive culture where you feel like you belong?
And there are things you can do too. Listening and learning and making spaces for voices that aren’t normally heard is a great start to practicing allyship. Wherever possible BIPOC employees can find strength in community and building their own recruiting pipelines as they do that. And if you don’t feel a sense of inclusion, maybe look around for a company that lives those values.
And speaking of values, we’ll dive much deeper [00:34:00] into what that looks like in another episode. Before that though, in the next episode, we dive deeper into the employee experience to look at how that can be a beacon for choosing the right company for you wherever you might be in your career.
Sonia Kang: But for now we all need to do the hard work of diversity and inclusion together and for one another.
Dolly Chugh: Ibram X. Kendi talks about anti-racism, [00:34:30] that it’s not enough to be not racist because being not racist is actually..it’s like in my book..I say, it’s just being a believer. You just believe in these things, but you’re not actively building for them.
Sonia Kang: Thanks for listening. I’m Sonia Kang and this is For the Love of Work, an original podcast made possible by Rogers. Find us at fortheloveofwork.ca. Talk soon.